Long post, try to make it through to the end.
From time to time I will be diving into some of the nitty-gritty aspects of life. Please understand that I intend to speak frankly about sexuality in this post, specifically as it pertains to husbands and fatherhood. My posts won’t all be like this.
I hate pornography. When I say that I hate it understand that the very first kid I punched in the face was shoving a nudy picture into my face when I was 12. As dramatic as this sounds, I actually walked off his property and never went back. I was raised with a father and mother who taught me that the worth of a person did not depend on their ability to attract a mate. Now I know some of the folks that read this are of a more progressive mindset and may think, “Come on, Ryan. What's wrong with a little breasts or crotch shots here and there? We’re all human”. Precisely. Human. Not apes or dogs. Animals rely on instincts to make their way through life. I like to think we’re better then that. One of our defining attributes as humans is our ability to tell our instincts “No”. This is actually not my main point. Let’s get to that now.
Pornography teaches young men and women that their sexual pleasure is derived from ever-escalating sources of stimulus. Anyone who has ever dealt with this kind of thing will understand what I mean. (On that note, let me make one thing clear. As much as I hate porn, I have struggled with it in the past. It’s a nasty trap that and once you feed that appetite, getting it uprooted from your mind and heart is no small task. A word of advice: stay far away.) As a young man first being exposed to pornography, a simple picture of nudity is enough exciting stimulus for that sexual appetite. Soon, however, it ceases to be enough and you look for a bit more, perhaps more skin exposure or the act of sex. From there you may require a video of sex to satisfy this growing beast that is your sexual appetite. It does not take a genius to see where this goes.
Pedophiles do not happen overnight. It’s a long, sick and sad process of escalation.
So why is it a problem to teach your appetite for sex that you need more exposure, raunchier content, crazier acts of sex in order to be satisfied? There is a whole book that could be written about that subject. Today, lets discuss how being faithful to your wife/husband becomes a real issue. Not just faithful in action, but in your thoughts. I hold true to the belief that we’re all responsible for our thoughts, not just our actions. Not only because God sees our thoughts, but because soon those thoughts can lead to actions that lead to other more destructive actions. Do people trip and fall into their secretary’s bed? No. A man who sleeps with another woman has built a foundation of this kind or escalating sexuality. Usually it involves several steps. He may go from looking at porn here and there to a full-on addiction. From there he will, inevitably, bring those images into his marriage bed via his imagination. He’ll start using those thoughts to get turned on. From there he may start fantasizing about women in his life, those close to him and who may have even flirted a bit. Once those fantasies have taken root and he’s no longer engaged with his wife for anything other then simple friction, all it takes is the wrong time and place and you have some freshly cooked and carefully prepared adultery. Guys and gals, as horrible as it sounds, it happens all the time. Most people walk down this ugly path while not even knowing what sort of mess they are creating. Those that willingly fantasize and are "cool" with watching pornography, what are you teaching your spouse? "You are not enough. I want something else".
It is insane that the world around us actually promotes pornography or writes it off as harmless.
My goal is for Rachel and I to be an old couple that is still in love. I want to be a trustworthy and “clean-feeling” man. (Women who read this will know just what I mean by “clean-feeling”. A man who is eaten up with an advanced and monstrous sexual appetite can be spotted a mile away.) We do not need an escalating sexuality in order to be 100% fulfilled. We have been married for 8 years and Rachel and I enjoy each other a ton, all the time having a clean conscience.
Men and women! Safeguard your heart! Do not allow yourself to become a walking appetite. A selfish attitude towards sexual fulfillment will leave you empty and alone. Keep your bedroom clear of any of the crap out there and if you’re not married, honor your future wife/husband now by keeping your eyes and heart clear.
Love you,
Ryan
***
I ask that those of you who want to post to please read ALL the original post and ALL the comments. Chances are the subject has been covered. I have seen these kinds of discussions go on and on and on and on because people keep repeating what’s been said. If you’ve made a point that has been argued with, please don’t simply remake that point using a slightly different example or twist. If you’ve said you’re bit, let it be.
Fun stuff guys, keep it coming!
As relevant as this is to males, this also applies to females. In this growing age of separation from God, the morality lines are crossed and recrossed until people don't know what's up or down, right from wrong,or sin from righteousness. Our young women are being taught through massive media onslaught that pornography is cool. Not just watching it, but living it.
ReplyDeleteThis disease called pornagraphy has clung like a wayward hair to a staticly charged t-shirt, and I fear will never be removed from society.
I too have once known the burden of pornagraphy, and one will never know the damaging effects until they've cast off the shroud.
I agree with Ryan, people. Stay far, far away.
Thanks for the comment, Alli. Let's get our families together soon!
ReplyDelete"Our young women are being taught through massive media onslaught that pornography is cool. Not just watching it, but living it."
How very true and sad. Well said.
I agree, two hundred percent. and I would text you right now, but it's late. do you want to get coffee tomorrow morn? I'll be up early and I have class at 11, so if it's convenient for you I can do whatever.
ReplyDeleteRyan,
ReplyDeleteThis is a really fantastically insightful piece into the dangers of pornography. I appreciate your willingness to deal with it honestly and with humble self-disclosure.
One never cheats on their spouse or just has sex with someone without some kind of preceding, prolonged thought pattern.
As someone who has struggled with this issue, even though, like you I had been taught well by my parents, I appreciate the clarity with which you write about this. Some people think that addiction is too strong a word, and if you want to be technical, perhaps the better term is compulsion, but functionally it's an addiction. Keep up the blog I'll be a faithful reader and commenter!
You're preaching to the choir for me and many others on the fact that we should stay away and that sexuality should only be used in certain ways, but what would you say to those who do note share that value? I like the escalating desire argument, and the respect for your spouse argument, but what of those who may say, I think it's ok to sleep with anyone (if one were not married) or perhaps even say, "We have an open marriage." If that were the value is there any compelling reason not to use pornography?
@ Jared Hey man thanks. Lets def grab some coffee soon. Tomorrow?
ReplyDelete@ Aaron Thank you for the support, bro. I use the term "addiction" with confidence because I have been addicted to cigarettes. My dealings with internet pornography felt very similar to my struggle with smoking.
---
Here is what I mean: Like cigarettes, that particular form of expression we call pornography, unlike all other forms of expression, is a delivery system that has a distinct and powerful effect upon the human brain and nervous system. Exactly like cigarettes, and unlike any other form of expression, this effect is to cause a powerful addiction. Like any other addiction, the addiction is both to the delivery system itself--the pornography--and to the chemicals that the delivery system delivers. [Emphasis in original.]
It may seem surprising that, at this juncture, I should speak of "chemicals," when one might be thinking instead of "sex." But, in fact, modern science allows us to understand that the underlying nature of an addiction to pornography is chemically nearly identical to a heroin addiction: Only the delivery system is different, and the sequence of steps. That is why heroin addicts in particular give up sex and routinely compare their "rushes" to "orgasms."
Jeffrey Satinover, M.S., M.D., Psychiatrist and Professor at Princeton University
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As far as having an open relationship, secular and Christian sources alike agree that the concept will end in failed relationships. Intimacy is an exclusive concept. The trust and connection from sexual intimacy is crushed by a third party. I have a close friend who tried this and ruined his/her marriage.
Right on, Ryan. A eye-opener is to go to Youtube and listen to the highlights of the Ted Bundy interview taped three hours before his execution. Some have tried to debunk the facts he talks about because he was such a con-artist, but these are literally his last words, after being in prison for 10 years. The points he makes about his background and and others incarcerated with him for the same crimes are salient to your thread... and horrible.
ReplyDeleteThese are matters of discipline, integrity and honesty. If you enter a relationship expecting monogamy, be monogamous. If you want a quick schtup, say so. Big whoop.
ReplyDeleteMy folks watch porn and have been happily married for decades, and they're not anomalous. I am appalled by the modern institution of marriage (not the idea) and will never partake, but I nonetheless appreciate & enjoy cultivating exclusive relationships (and I watch porn).
I find the suggestion that porn leads to pedophilia disgusting... but I'd rather ignore that nonsense and simply ask you to define porn in any way that is unambiguous (and thus useful). You can't, because eroticism is a matter of taste. For example, perhaps one couple likes tickling and one hates it. The former may construe eroticism from an image of adults tickling (thus it'd be porno) and the latter would simply see it as annoying (thus it wouldn't). But ultimately, any exposed flesh or highlighted form (especially the hips & waists of women and the torsos & jaws of men) are sexually arousing — it's just how we've evolved. We instinctively notice visual cues of fitness and derive sexual pleasure from them. The only way to get rid of that reaction is to age or die.
So we're left with the choice to go all-out (require everybody to wear burqas in public or go naked) or to tread some inherently-ambiguous middle-ground. How much midriff is too much? Can the breast be shown, but not the nipple? How far down can your shorts hang? Should sexy (or hideously overweight) men be able to go topless? Personally I couldn't care less.
*shrug* You can go on bemoaning the decline of man all you want. Meanwhile my friends and family will go on enjoying their porn and the rest of their lives, and they won't be sleeping with minors or going on killing sprees (unless you'd like to suggest otherwise). We have the discipline, integrity and honesty to handle that much, at least.
This alarmist fluff is just that — fluff. Thanks to science and technology I can live twice as long as my 4x great grandparents. Twice as long to love my friends and family, enjoy my life, and work to leave the world a better place than I found it. I'll be healthier all the while and I have instantaneous access to more information than existed on the whole planet in their era (and I can get it all from any place with 3G coverage).
Yes, there are more reports of crazy people than there have ever been. But so what? The craziness of our species is probably proportionally the same as when the first proto-human stood up. The only reason there are more reports of crazies is because A. there are orders of magnitude more people now than in the very recent past and B. communication is more thorough than ever before (and the population only keeps growing and the technology keeps getting better).
I agree that porn can be addictive. Anything which produces endorphins can be addictive — games, fatty or spicy foods, exercise, drugs, even one's job (workaholics). Addiction to ANYTHING is a problem, and if one's friends and family have a shred of character they'd do something about it OTHER THAN reinforcing the shame they feel. Being ashamed of one's physical form or sexual desires is pathetic and pitiable.
If pornography is inherently bad and evil and should be avoided by everyone then so is alcohol. And sports. And gaming. And any food other than bland bread and cheese. In other words, it all has to do with discipline — either you have the discipline necessary to handle your consumption of porn (or cheese) or you don't. Just because YOU couldn't consume porn and maintain healthy relationships doesn't mean other people can't. How you get from one to the other boggles my mind.
Ryan, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. Pornography is such a sensitive and taboo subject. In my opinion, that is part of the problem.
ReplyDeletePeople are never going to agree about pornography. If you are for it people will see you as a sexual deviant, if you are against it people see you as a moral entrepreneur whose crusade needs to be stopped. Yes those are extremes, but people tend to think in extremes these days.
Pornography is as addictive and personally destructive as any other habit out there whether it is drug abuse, alcoholism, gambling, or in my case gaming. Anything that produces pleasure has the potential to be abusive and destructive.
The problems you allude to are more than pornography. Though pornography can be a contributor, it does not cause a person to have extramarital sex. What I am trying to say is that when it gets to that point, there is more than just flipping through a dirty magazine or browsing a website going on in the marriage, even if it’s at a subconscious level.
I also humbly disagree with your view on the cause of pedophilia. Pedophilia is a psychosocial disorder that is typically brought on during adolescence (DSM-IV-TR), at a time where exposure to pornography is unlikely though I will admit possible. I would agree though in that in this context pornography would feed and established pedophiles urges.
@ Jason
ReplyDelete(and Jambe) The pedophile comment is to show where the escalation can end up. The idea that it’s a condition beyond your control is simply not held up by any research I’ve seen. Does everyone who looks at porn end up a pedophile/otherwise dangerous person? No. Does everyone who smokes a cigarette end up dead of cancer? No. Does everyone who has unprotected sex end up with HIV? No. Does everyone who has a beer end up dead, either in a car wreck or failed organs? No. But all of these things can end up happening, and sometimes do. I have a man in my community who was caught with kiddy porn on his computer. Did he wake up at the age of 16 and say, “Gee, I like little kids?” I highly doubt it. He, like most studies have shown, simply did not stop feeding the appetite. He could have, but he chose not to, and ended up “needing” that kind of stimulation to get aroused.
So please don’t get worked up about the pedophile comment. It’s simply drawing a picture of where that road can lead.
@ Jambe
Hey bro,
It's obvious that our culture, life experience and religious beliefs differ a great deal. It would take 20 pages of text to go down your post point-by-point. Perhaps we could dive in on the otc forum. J So instead of volleying the "ball" back to you like some ideological tennis match, let me simply state a few of my foundational beliefs and then ask you a couple questions.
I believe in God, eternal existence and consequences for actions.
I believe we can and should control our appetites, thus retaining who we are as a person and not living out an animalistic existence.
I believe that “porn”, like you said, is more about the appetite then the culturally defined specifics of exposure. However, the concept of escalation will lead us down the same path no matter how basic the “starting point”.
I believe that sex is glue. It holds people together in a relationship. Casual sex is anything but and it has left the people I’ve talked to feeling “spread thin” and with lower self-esteem.
I believe the sexual industry, both prostitution and the production of pornography, is particularly dangerous due to the kind of abuse, cultural moral degradation and disease surrounding it. This is in response to comments about other appetites being the same as pornography.
So, here are a couple questions to ask yourself.
Have you studied the pornography industry worldwide? If so, how do you feel about actively or passively supporting it through viewing?
Why do you want pornography?
Ryan,
ReplyDeleteUsing pedophelia to draw a picture of where it can lead would be like drawing a picture of an apple to show people how to get to New York. Keep in mind that pedophiles seek out child pron, child pron doesn't seek them out.
Now that that is out of the way...I believe a person only goes as far as they take themselves. Please note, I didn't say "allow themselves". That mantra has been spat about for too long, and is indicative of the "someone help me" syndrome going on all around us in the world today. Take personal responsibility for your actions. (which it seems you have, congratulations... really, I mean that.) If everyone did that, things would be far less complex and just an overall darn nicer place.
* previous post showed bold didn't work so I'll use italics to indicate what I'm addressing.
ReplyDeleteI believe in God ... actions.
I believe in the material world. There are things we cannot quantify (love, music) but they give no credence to supernatural claims. None of the "evidence" ever presented for supernatural entities proves them in the same manner as, say, a mathematical formula proves mass-energy equivalence (not even close). I view our capacity for skepticism as our most valuable faculty, and if pressed, I'd say exercising & promoting skepticism holds in my life the place religion otherwise would.
I believe we ... animalistic existence.
Couldn't possibly agree with you more.
I believe that “porn” ... “starting point”.
What path? Are you suggesting that regular consumption of pornography degrades a person over time in the same manner that, say, regular consumption of alcohol degrades the liver? If so I disagree.
I believe that sex ... self-esteem.
Sex creates a powerful emotional bond, and jumping from person to person regularly will indeed lead to damage. I suppose some can handle it, but as a species we're sorta wired for monogamy. Our social behavior is evolved, after all, and monogamy clearly provides several benefits to a mother and child (a mother would struggle to raise a child without a mate for support — this is true of many species).
I don't like the empty feeling not having an exclusive partner produces. I therefore usually pursue exclusive sexual relationships for long periods of time. It's satisfying to devote yourself (in that manner) to a particular person. That doesn't mean I'll ever marry anybody or that I'll remain exclusive to one specific individual over the course of my whole life, mind. I may do the latter some day, but never the former. And I still may have occasional one-off sexytimes, spontaneous moments of passion with old flames, etc, just not frequently.
I believe the sexual ... pornography.
Ehhh, I guess I agree in extremely general terms, but this is too vague to have much meaning. It seems your implication is that prostitution and pornography should be outlawed, but I disagree. I'd agree there's an element of danger to either... but there's an element of danger to most anything. Big whoop. Regulation is necessary.
Have you studied the pornography industry worldwide?
ReplyDeleteNo. I've heard the odd bit of news about the San Fernando Valley, but it's what you'd expect — lack of regulation or enforcement thereof sometimes leads to disease outbreak. In other parts of the world I gather it's often a truly disgusting affair, but other parts of the world are often truly disgusting, so that's not surprising, either.
If so, how do you ... viewing?
Most porn is terrible. It's objectifying and often outright degrading and I cannot stomach it. I mostly consume videos of female masturbation; what intercourse porn I do view comes from smallish (you might say niche) groups which cater to folk who aren't in it for your standard "put it in all the holes and then be done with it" routine (that's crude, but I think it's an honest evaluation of most porn, and reinforces my point about how gross and misogynistic most of it is).
I feel good about supporting people who enjoy helping me and my friends enjoy ourselves. Because of the legal information on such sites I can be (reasonably) certain of the videos' provenance — I don't hit up random link farms or 4chan, for example. I know what I want and I get it from the most reliable sources available.
Why do you want pornography?
When I don't have somebody to have sex with I masturbate because A. it feels good and B. it provides a sort of emotional calm (often helps me sleep). I'm not addicted to it — just whenever I feel like I need to. Maybe once a week, every few, or every day for a week in a row. I don't keep track. When I do have a partner, we often partake to get in the mood for or to heighten the experience of sex.
Pornography is a necessary, but not a sufficient cause of pedophilia. So the path metaphor is a good one. Of course not everyone who partakes will become at and it is at least conceivable that theree is no degradation as Jambr suggests for SOME people, but for many, possibly most that is not the case.
ReplyDeleteSo Jambe is your strict choice of what types of pornography producers assuage your conscious about supporting an industry that in many many cases is built on compulsions of peole, and often sexual abuse and exploitations of the participants? We often use the same analogy when we choose what companies to buy from, so perhaps this kind of reasoning may work here, but I have my doubts.
I personally have this to say about addictions and addictive behavior, if you find you can't do a routine part of your life without a particular substance or activity, you may nt to closely examine your life and whether you want to keeo that thing in your life. There are a lot of highly addictive things that are totally legal, but you may still, want to stay away completely or if you do partake, then be very careful. Personally i don't drink, I don't smoke, and my battle with pornography has been fought and i won. Similarly i gave up diet coke a couple of years ago because I had become dependent. I feel better not having to depend on such things.
The last thought I had on this whole topic is that of thoughts. This relates to escalation but is not exactly the same thing. In order to do something, anything, you must have considered it, and usually it's nit just right before you do it. More often something you "suddenly decide to do" is not sudden at all, you've been thinking about it bit by bit for a long while. Pornography leads to sexual acts if you think about it enough. If you are ok with being driven about by your body by eddying those kinds if urges, then alright. I sure hope that you are aware of what youap are doing to yourself. I want to testify to something I know to be true, and I'm claiming this not just for myself, but it applies to everyone. The more freedome we have the happier we are, stated negatively, being enslaved to something makes you unhappy because it's so hard to choose what you want, but ultimately all addictions can be overcome by asserting more and more if your own choices and changing your beliefs. God will help in such even if you don't believe in Jim. Turth is truth whther you recognize it's source or not.
Will you give up water because you're dependent on it, Aaron? How far will you take that argument?
ReplyDeleteDo you drive a car? Do you ever use plastic? If so, how do you feel about contributing to the largest oil spill & environmental disaster in US history? Y'see my point?
Yes, bad things happen in porn production. Bad things happen in charity work for goodness' sake! The fact that bad things are related to something doesn't mean said something is inherently bad. The mere suggestion is fundamentally, undeniably illogical. It defies logic. It is as baldly incorrect as 1+1=3.
I consume porn. It comes from people who are genuinely interested in producing it and are doing so legally within the framework of US laws. I do not support career prostitutes who have so much harsh sex that they need genital re-constructive surgery. I don't support sex slavery. I don't support 99% of the porn out there because I think 99% of it is tasteless smut. Now, I think a person should be allowed to user their body up in production of porn, just as I think a person should be allowed to die if they want to. What people can and can't do with their own bodies should be their own decision (unless they end up directly interfering with the common good).
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI have thoughts about a lot of these things, but I am afraid most of them are "debate points" rather than genuinely helpful. I do have one thing that might be unique here to contribute.
ReplyDeleteI have visited the dark side of the internet. In fact, I spent quite a bit of time there. I talked to people who were often christians and dealing with attraction to minors. Turns out they weren't monsters at all. A lot of them were genuinely nice people that were just terrified of their sexual leanings. Often, a lot of psychological baggage came along for the ride, but some had pristine upbringings in good homes. I was never able to make any conclusion about what caused these attractions in some universal sense. What I did find was that listening to them was just like listening to anyone else who desperately wanted a relationship with someone that would, in the end, hurt both of them. It was like listening to myself.
In relation to this post, I think there was a clear distinction between these people. I will focus on this religious group specifically. A number of pedophiles outside of it do believe sex with minors is perfectly healthy and quite bitterly attacked those who did not believe the same. Within the "christians," some people chose restraint. That means no porn of any sort. Others said that porn was their only outlet. Typically, this would start with looking at completely clothed people and progress downward. Yes, that progression sometimes fell right off into the real world, with them disappearing and others online learning about what happened via a police report. Strangely, the people who defended pornography before still staunchly defended it as a healthy outlet that kept them from doing something to children.
How we deceive ourselves when we want to believe something.
While those who were "repressed" had a lot of pain to deal with, to put it mildly, they ultimately triumphed. Those who were supposedly free were simply not.
I learned a lot from that experience. I met some great people and realized that loving the outcasts of society is truly critical. I also learned that feeding the beast that is chasing you will slow it down, but only make it bigger and stronger over time. Better to face it when it is small.
Thank you for your insights into your experiences with pedophilia. It seems like you have had some unique and light-shedding experiences with that particular perversion. It’s interesting how that one sentence in the original post has drawn so much attention.
ReplyDeletePedophilia is victimization. It is one-sided sexual stimulation with a minor. There are those who may be “clinical” and really seek help. I also think there are those who walk down a dark path by means of pornographic content they use to stimulate themselves. More often then not, the online variety leads to the “real-world” criminal act.
Your post supports my original point. The idea is to avoid the sexual escalation that is provided by indulging in pornographic content. In today’s day and age, you are a couple clicks on the computer from the most disgusting and terrifying stuff in this world. So why would a thinking, self-respecting person even start down that road?
You end up like my neighbor. Not an active “real-world” pedophile, yet still on the sexual predator list due to the pictures found on his computer. That’s “real-world” enough to get him arrested. I sure would not trust him around my boys and I think we’d all agree that I shouldn’t.
I hope the whole pedophile thing on this post can close now. Haven’t we covered it?
I was really responding more to the others than your original post. I was agreeing with you.
ReplyDeleteAnd no, I don't think anyone who looks at child porn should be alone with children, any more than someone who looks at female porn should be alone with a woman. I have a feeling the latter is more controversial. :-P
Pedophilia, like homosexuality, is simply being attracted to someone that you should never pursue physical contact with. A thorn in the flesh, if you will. It can either become an issue that eats you alive or something that is defeated by choosing something that matches your values rather than your hormones. That choice is the same one we all have to make.
I've tried twice to comment and it hasn't worked and I lost what I typed both times, but perhaps I will get to do it tonight.... :(
ReplyDeleteIf this shows up I will try.
Thanks, Ryan, for your post! I'm glad that you are saying this. As a woman, I'd like to point out the sweet, amazing sense of safety & value that is communicated by the fact that my husband is not viewing other women. Though I see several of your responders consider it to be okay, the fact is that porn does damage a woman's sense of self-worth. Everytime my spouse chooses to be faithful to me in his mind, he is making a bold statement to me that he values me above all others & that what we have together is precious to him.
ReplyDelete@ Aaron When this started I was not moderating the comments, so they appeare3d right away. Now it may take an hour or so for me to click “accept”. I did this due to the nature of the discussion. I hope you’ll understand.
ReplyDelete@ Kim Well said! What value can you place on safety and trust within a marriage? I cannot imagine making my wife think that I am fantasizing about other women when we make love. That is cruel and degrading.
@ Jambe/Everyone
ReplyDeleteI deleted a former post because my tone was a bit harsh. I want those who disagree to feel very welcome to do so. Jambe, I hope you’ll accept my apology. Let’s all work to keep the content of our posts within the PG-13 range. J
I would like to say that when I use the term “you”, I am meaning any who may share Jambe’s views. Not just him personally.
Before lecturing Aaron on his use of logic, let’s look at your use of logic. Logic and reason should be applicable across varying subject matter save the details specific to that subject matter. For instance, you compare the consumption of petroleum products to the consumption if pornography. Let’s see.
One cannot function in today’s society without some consumption of petroleum products yet we can all live quite successful and productive lives without ever consuming pornography.
You compare a single disaster involving the petroleum industry to decades of rape, underage abuse, moral degradation and disease. You know why there are entire organizations in Eastern Europe dedicated to producing underage pornography? There is a market for it in the US and across the world.
Your logic seems to be quite a convenient sort! It’s a liquid kind of logic that can take the form of whatever idea you’re trying to support. Adding words like “fundamentally” and “undeniably” makes it no less pliable
You say that the porn you consume is somehow harmless. So, paying a woman to do that sort of thing is not degrading? So “regulating” prostitution makes it somehow harmless? Have you just decided not to look at the damage that the sex industry produces? Our whole culture worships sex. But that’s another conversation altogether. Look up the term “westtoxification” when you get the chance. This whole filthy mess is our main export.
Let me ask you a question. Let’s say you are walking in the woods and find a huge pile of fresh bear scat, but you’re hungry. You decide that the few partially digested berries and nuts in the scat are OK to eat because they don’t look quite like the rest of the brown oozing mush. So you eat them. You just ate bear scat. I hope that the next time you sit down to your “safe” and “harmless” porn, you’ll have the understanding that all you’re doing is picking through the crap and deciding which part to eat. You cannot divorce one from the other. It’s all part of the same pile-of-crap industry and you’re supporting it.
Have you ever thought of why there’s a huge market for child pornography? I mean, really sit quietly and wonder. Why? Are there THAT many pedophiles? Or are there simply quiet monsters in their dark rooms taking steady steps towards that awful sickness? A dark march of steady sexual escalation.
Let me finish with this:
If you, and whoever will read this, are struggling with a need for pornography I would suggest you do some soul-searching. I once struggled and I would again if I let myself go down that road. Those women and men are precious people who God loves so much. They have made some choices in life that have brought them to where they are. Some of them are working off debts to powerful people. Some of them are slaves. Some of them are simply trying to make money with what they believe they have to offer the world. Don’t you dare support it. Don’t you dare look at it.
The danger is this:
You will feed your appetite until it eats you up. You will also be passively (or actively if you pay for it) supporting an industry that claims the lives thousands of men and women every year. It also claims the lives of many children. Do you want that on your conscience?
I ask that those of you who want to post to please read ALL the original post and ALL the comments. Chances are the subject has been covered. I have seen these kinds of discussions go on and on and on and on because people keep repeating what’s been said. If you’ve made a point that has been argued with, please don’t simply remake that point using a slightly different example or twist. If you’ve said you’re bit, let it be.
ReplyDeleteFun stuff guys, keep it coming!
Just wanted to throw out my final thoughts on the subject since I kinda lost myself on the already well covered topic.
ReplyDeleteI personally don't know how I feel about porn since yes, it was once a problem for me, and here and there I fall of the wagon. But I have tried to cut it from my life.
I do however believe that the addiction to pornography in the US, in particular, is primarily because sex and sexuality is something we are trained to not talk about. Even with our spouses. I know I'm not gonna say this right, so don't nitpick me. We turn to porn to help fill a "want" that we are too embarrased to express to our spouse. That is harmful to any relationship.
@ Jason
ReplyDeleteI agree that the "hush hush" attitude comes into play with the widespread popularity of pornography. Perhaps not to as great an extent as a while ago, but still there.
Within a marriage, people turn to pornography for many reasons including what you've stated. Couples or individuals going to porn to fill needs that are not getting met because of lack of communication or lack of the other party caring. I would propose that the problem is in how a married couple's sex life is viewed by the entire culture.
When I approach my sex life, I try to not be selfish. I do not just go "Hey, me want sex. Come here, woman. Me Tarzan." When I make love I want to make my wife satisfied and happy. That's my goal. In our relationship, my wife does the same. So you have both needs getting more then met, and no one's acting selfishly. It's really a wonderful thing. Is every time a marathon of ecstasy? No. Am I always selfless and a great lover? No. Yet after eight years of marriage I have yet to want any body but my wife's while making love. I do not fantasize about some silicon-enhanced woman I saw in a video. I would see that as great disrespect and a betrayal of trust.
If you get the impression that I'm being at all didactic or holier-then-thou please dismiss it. I struggle like anyone else. I'm just stating what I've made my goal as it pertains to our sex life.
Thanks for a woman's perspective, Kim! I am not married, but I think I would feel the same way if my wife looked at porn.
ReplyDeleteI guess I want to temper my statements a bit too. I understand it's difficult not to do, because we have those triggers all around us that make us think sexually. You explained that well, Jason. My personal strategy has been to put filters on my home network. I have a Christian friend with the password in case I need to make changes. I guess a good option for a married couple would be to just keep the computer in a public area where everybody can see what others are doing.
Yes, if I ever have kids, they will hate me... no privacy in my house!
Eh, I probably should have been less... frank... in my responses. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteThe oil spill was an analogy; the point was about the underlying logic and it remains valid. I don't promote rape, abuse, objectification, etc, and nor does the porn I consume. The fact that porn has bad aspects does not mean that consuming porn = supporting all the bad aspects (nor is drinking tacit support of alcolism or drunk driving).
Your bear poop statement implies that all porn is bad; I disagree. Some is, some isn't. I didn't say the porn I consumed was "harmless", mind you, but I think the issue being discussed is better looked at like this: how is porn used in the real world, i.e. how does porn affect individuals & society?
Your argument seemts to be that porn makes individuals highly sexualized and this leads to bad decisions. It objectifyies women which leads to men disrespecting them. On a "macro" level porn is a self-perpetuating phenomenon which leads to so much bad stuff that it's probably best abolished. Is that fair? Do you believe that?
Regards the sexualization angle and "escalation": I know many people who consume porn and lead healthy, productive lives (some have been married for years). This contradicts the notion that porn is inherently corrupting. Some people will become addicted to porn but most won't, just as most people who drink won't become alcoholics.
Regards the macro bit: I know and have worked in the vicinity of pornographic performers and I know and have chatted with anti-porn feminists. The polarization is extreme. There's loads of "info" (mostly just anecdotes) about how terrible porn is from explicitly anti-porn sources and loads of "info" about how great it is from explicitly pro-porn sources. The truth is somewhere in-between.
Reliable (peer-reviewed) info is widely available but none of it supports an "all porn is bad" stance or its "all porn is good" counterpart. The Kinsey Institute at IU has been an excellent resource for 60+ years. I'm fairly knowledgeable about porn in America and Japan; everything I've seen suggests it should be legal but regulated.
I think you're an extremist on this issue; your views are all in one corner of the spectrum. I appreciate both pro and anti-porn arguments and my opinion falls more or less in the middle. In fact, given that I'm often around feminists and sorta see myself as one, my views are probably closer to yours on many porn topics than they would be to your "all porn is good" ideological counterpart.
I think we've both said what we have to say at this point. I would leave you with a challenge. I have been where you are. You have not been where I am. I would challenge you to take a month off all kinds of pornography. Go on a fast. What I think will happen is you will see just how powerful this appetite may have become in your life.
ReplyDeleteI even bet that you will not go running back to porn once you see how it feels to be free of it.
Whether you like it or not, a red-neck in Tallahassee named Ryan Peck is praying that God will reveal Himself to you. That may sound like crazy talk to you, but I have met God. It's an experience like no other and it has had undeniable effects in my life.
Here’s another challenge for you. This one costs you nothing but 15 minutes of your evening. When you lay down at night ( during your porn fast :) ), clear your mind and ask God to speak to you. What do you have to lose?
This goes for anyone reading this. I'm not going to tip-toe around what I believe. There is life to be had like no other you can imagine. Not religion...religion is something man made. I'm talking about meeting your maker before you croak. Not some silly "crutch" that "weak-minded" people use to handle life because they can't do it on their own, but an awakening to what's real and true. I'm not telling you to run to some church and become a member so you can live forever. I want you to open your eyes to the light.
Do you have the courage to look to your creator? God is by no means intimidated by that fact that you don't believe in Him. He loves you. He wants to know you and give you new life. Challenge Him to reveal Himself to you and He will. I’m serious. He will. Question is, do you have the courage to ask and listen for an answer?
Well I don't have time to really replace the comment I tried to post yesterday, but here's the part that I think is most relevant.
ReplyDeleteRyan, I LOVE your last paragraph, it is, to a large extent a mirror of part of what I lost in my comment. Thank you for being bold.
Jambe, you said that we are, in effect, "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" as you argue that there are some kind of porn that are "good." You go on to argue that there are people who use porn who lead happy healthy lives, and some of them have been married for a long while.
For me I'm going to define "good" as leading to the results I want to see in my life/afterlife. What I want is a happy, honest, and open marriage with my wife during this life and the life to come. For me I want sexuality to be a beautiful thing that is shared between two people who not only love each other, but who are committed to each other and any children that they may bring into the world through the expression of that sexuality. I could add a lot more, but the point is this: Given that definition there is no such thing as pornography that is good. All porn is bad.
Before I cause too much of a stir, remember that this is my definition and you may not share it, this is my "make believe" and you are free to make up your own. As for it being extreme, I don't think so, no not at all. Extremism is usually polarizing and filled with hate and slander of the other position, filled with logical fallacies and mischaracterizations, usually maliciously. That is certainly not what I see in Ryan or myself, but I very freely welcome any points people may want to make on this.
It's true there are people who lead mostly happy, mostly healthy lives who are married who use porn. I would be surprised if many who use porn today actually disclose to their partner what they are doing, and if they do at all if they do it in any amount of detail. Doing so would cause quite a bit of strife in the majority, though I acknowledge not all relationships. Why is that? When people really look deep into themselves and what they want for their relationship they want to be the only one their partner desires and dreams about. Many people have given up on the notion that such a thing is possible because they cannot or will not do it, but it is.
I have been entirely without pornography, masturbation and sex for months at a time; I'm no different during those periods. I'm not more or less horny or more or less appreciative of my fellow humans. I'm just... me. I'd guess I have sexual activity of any kind 3-6 times a month on average — I don't fantasize about it all day and do it whenever the opportunity arises.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your concern but I don't see myself becoming religious anytime soon. I have great appreciation for the aesthetic and cultural achievements of many religions; I just don't experience the supernatural elements.
Also, that courage argument can be used the other way 'round just as easily. I think the observable universe is so incredible that a supernatural element is unnecessary. I don't need religion to be moral. I thrive on doubt and skepticism — constantly trying to separate unreliable anecdote and mysticism from the relative truth of empirical observations, tests and theories.
The more I learn the more I see what a tiny, ignorant and insignificant little speck of dust I really am... and against that backdrop I can't help but be awed by the fact that I exist at all. It makes me appreciate the time I have and makes me want to leave this place better than I found it. The grandeur of what I can know with my skeptical mind is enough for me (and for many others, too, given that one of the fastest-growing minorities in the US is the folk who check "no religion" on censuses and surveys — about 34 million people or 15% as of 2008).
Knowing what I know now I would suggest to all to avoid the pitfall that is the belief that porn is okay, or should somehow be acceptable to a significant other. I am not even willing to ignore the cases where a person who cannot/will not find a significant other is reaching for some semblance of spiritual/physical connection. It's b.s.
ReplyDeleteIn "Deflating the Myth of Monogamy" by David P. Barash (http://www.trinity.edu/rnadeau/fys/barash%20on%20monogamy.htm):
[There is no question about monogamy's being natural. It isn't. But at the same time, there is no reason to conclude that adultery is unavoidable, or that it is good. "Smallpox is natural," wrote Ogden Nash. "Vaccine ain't." Animals, most likely, can't help "doing what comes naturally." But humans can. A strong case can even be made that we are never so human as when we behave contrary to our natural inclinations, those most in tune with our biological impulses. /]
Pornography is adultery. It's cheating on your spouse, your future spouse, or even Jesus, if you will. What will you do when you find the most amazing person you have ever met in your life and they tell you that they can't have a relationship with you because they won't compete with an always-willing, always-ready, always-giving, always-horny, always-fit false image? You will find yourself reevaluating your stance on porn, I assure you. Just because your partners allowed for your desire for porn doesn't mean they loved you more, or better. Quite the contrary, they cared less for you than you realize. It must be heart-wrenching for a woman to learn that they have to compete with a girl on the screen who is doing what they do as a business transaction. If your relationships are simply a series of business transactions that you complete, then you haven't been in any effectively nurturing relationship. Or, at least, you haven't given as much as you've taken.
BTW, Ryan, "...understand that the very first kid I punched in the face..." Exactly how many kids have you punched in the face? And, how did I avoid that dubious honor? *smirks*
ReplyDeletehehe Quite a few unfortunately. A Kid from Oregon moves to Franklin County FL at age of 10 and can't understand a word anyone's saying and actually has a ...wait for it...DIFFERENT last name than Shiver, Boatwright or Millender. Antics ensue. IT WAS ALL SELF DEFENSE I SWEAR! :D Except in high school when some kids talked nasty about my girlfriend. Then I just smacked 'em up.
ReplyDeleteAlso, unless I'm mistaken about your identity, I think we were too busy listening to old rap on your stepdads sound system. Feel the fa-feel the fa-feel the B-B-BASS!
I was first exposed to pornography at the age of twelve, digging through a box of my father's in our shed at home. From that first time finding it, it escalated into an obsession and eventually became an addiction. The desire to look at porn was one of the very first things God healed me of when I was saved, and so I consider myself fortunate and blessed, because I know people struggle tirelessly in this war.
ReplyDeleteAfter I was healed of the desire to seek out porn, I began to notice that my view towards woman was unhealthy. I saw them as sexual objects, there for my pleasure, and would check females out as I walked past, fantasizing about what it would be like to be with them. I rarely had a conversation with a female without having the ulterior motive of taking them to bed. I tried to justify myself by lying - I was just a hopeless romantic looking for love, or that I just needed to get laid.
I had become desensitized to what sex and my sexuality as a man truly meant. I used my girlfriends to meet my own physical desires, without loving them the way they should have been loved. I cared only about myself and feeding the sex-craved monster inside me. When I wasn't satisfied by my girlfriend, I would turn to porn, while my opinion of that person I said that I loved became shallower.
Porn, and the acceptance of it in our culture, has led to a major shift in the values of our society. It has escalated sexuality to a thing that is being worshiped. It has changed the way that women hold themselves, choose to dress, how they communicate with others and where they place their values. I notice women who base their sense of self worth on how they look, and those that find themselves attractive by the world's standards tend to have very self-inflated attitudes or are very self important, and unkind. I'm not trying to be judgmental, but I have begun to notice a pattern.
I rarely see an ad, commercial, television show or movie that doesn't have some form of sexual innuendo, scantily clad woman, or downright in your face "hey, this is sexy, so you should buy me" ploy. People are getting famous because sex videos of them are being released of them, and they're being offered reality TV shows. I have a friend who has become so enthralled with sexuality in our culture that he interrupts conversations to make a comment about or ogle at attractive females that walk by or show up on television. It's aggravating, because, half the time, his conversations are about those women and how lucky he would be to sleep with them. I love him to death, but he's really hurting in a way he doesn't realize, and it hurts to see him suffer.
Biblically, sexuality is a means of communicating love between a man and his wife. It is the ultimate spiritual, emotional, physical, and mental union of two people. It is literally and metaphorically "becoming one flesh". It is the means by which life is created. It is the means by which a loving and caring relationship is healed. It was meant to be a selfless, giving and ultimately satisfying act.
Porn has taken all that and dashed it to the rocks of Babylon. Even the softcore female masturbation videos have stolen the sanctity of love-making, turning it into a selfish, vile, nasty, debauched act of voyeurism for perverted minds, taking something that is supposed to be full of passion and romance, true love and commitment, and replaced it with pure unadulterated LUST, sprinkled with some selfishness and topped with a big ol' hunk of bear scat. By the way, masturbation is selfish. It is sin. It is using the body in a way that it was not intended (which is for making love to one's partner, not one's self). You could say if God didn't want us to masturbate, he would have made our arms shorter, but sorry, can't let you take the George Carlin way out. God gave us a brain. He gave us free will. He expects us to USE them both, not abuse them.
Alex,
ReplyDeleteI really appreciate your open and honest post. I think you're right on point. Mega-props for fighting the good fight, brother. Your doing your wife and kids a HUGE service by honoring them with your actions now.
I do want to make sure and respond to one part of your post. I know you and I talked about this earlier, but I wanted to put it here for clarity for others who'll read it.
We all have to be very careful wit the concept that "God delivered" us from this or that sinful action or habit. I have heard of people getting deliverance from certain addictions and that is awesome!! I have had seasons of rest from certain temptations as well. I think it's just important to not "close the books" on temptations and end up letting our guards down. Truth is, temptations can hit you at any time. There have been times that I felt as if I'd been hit with lighting out of a clear sky....no forewarning, no issues with thoughts, no arguments with Rachel...nothing...just sitting there and there's temptation. It's pretty frustrating. If you have a sense of relief from certain temptations then enjoy that rest, but don't ever let your guard down and think you'll never face that monster again.